Advertise in SDMIMD Journal of Management: Ad Rates, Formats, and Why This Academic Magazine Deserves a Place in Your Media Plan

Most brand managers, when they hear "academic journal advertising," immediately think of tiny, forgettable insertions buried between research abstracts that nobody reads. The reality of advertising in the SDMIMD Journal of Management is almost the opposite — and the brands that have quietly figured this out are reaching a room full of decision-makers, educators, and management professionals that most conventional media plans completely miss.

What makes this particularly interesting is the indexing credibility the journal carries. A publication that holds UGC Care listing, EBSCO indexing, J-Gate indexing, and an Index Copernicus Value of 95.57 is not a vanity publication; it is a peer-reviewed academic journal that serious professionals actually read, subscribe to, and cite — which means your advertisement appears in a context of genuine intellectual engagement, not passive scrolling.

What Is SDMIMD Journal of Management and Who Reads It?

The SDMIMD Journal of Management is the flagship peer-reviewed journal published by the SDM Institute for Management Development, Mysore — a business school rooted in the Shri Dharmasthala Manjunatheshwara educational tradition, which has built a reputation for rigorous management education across Karnataka and beyond. Published under ISSN 0976-0652 (print) and E-ISSN 2320-7906 (online), this bi-annual publication releases its issues in March and September each year, covering research across finance, marketing, human resources, strategy, and general management. The distribution is handled in partnership with Informatics Publishing Limited, which manages a significant portfolio of Indian academic journals and gives SDMIMD JOM access to an established institutional subscriber base.

What a lot of people miss is that the readership profile of this Mysore management journal is far more commercially valuable than the word "academic" might suggest. The audience spans faculty members at management institutions across India, doctoral researchers, corporate practitioners who engage with applied management research, MBA students at the postgraduate level, and policy professionals who use peer-reviewed work to inform organisational decisions. This is, frankly speaking, a concentration of academicians, researchers, and practitioners that most mainstream magazines cannot claim to deliver in a single issue. When we talk about niche audience targeting in print media buying, this is precisely the kind of audience that justifies the investment.

At SmartAds, we always tell our clients that the value of a media vehicle is not just in the raw numbers but in the quality of attention the reader brings to the page. Someone reading the SDMIMD Journal of Management has made a deliberate, active choice to engage with management thought — which means your advertisement, placed correctly, is seen in a state of high cognitive engagement rather than passive consumption. That is a meaningful distinction for brands in categories like management education, EdTech, MBA coaching, B-school admissions, corporate training, HR technology, and financial services.

What Ad Formats Are Available in SDMIMD Journal of Management?

The SDMIMD JOM offers several standard print magazine advertising positions, each carrying a different premium based on placement and visibility. The cover page advertisement — specifically the back cover ad and inside front cover positions — commands the highest rates because these are the first and last surfaces a reader encounters; they are handled and viewed multiple times across the journal's shelf life, which in institutional settings can stretch to months or even years. A full page ad placed within the editorial body of the journal delivers strong brand visibility in context, surrounded by research content that the reader is actively processing.

The half page advertisement is a popular entry point for brands that want presence in the SDMIMD Journal of Management without committing to a full-page investment; it works particularly well for EdTech platforms, MBA entrance coaching institutes, and B-school brands that want to establish name recognition among faculty and students simultaneously. Beyond standard display formats, the journal also accommodates advertorial content — which is a format we find significantly underused in India management magazine advertising. An advertorial allows a brand to present thought leadership or product information in an editorial style that aligns naturally with the journal's research-heavy environment, which tends to generate higher recall than a purely visual display ad.

From an ad format specification standpoint, advertisers should work with their creative teams to prepare artwork in high-resolution PDF or TIFF formats, with proper bleed margins as specified by Informatics Publishing Limited at the time of booking. The SDMIMD journal ad format specifications typically follow standard A4 print dimensions, but exact measurements — including trim size, bleed, and safe zone — should be confirmed at the time of ad insertion booking, since these can vary slightly between issues. Our team at SmartAds routinely handles this coordination on behalf of clients, which eliminates the back-and-forth that often delays ad artwork submission.

How Much Does It Cost to Advertise in SDMIMD Journal of Management?

This is the question that most platforms dance around, and frankly speaking, the lack of transparent pricing in this category is one of the biggest frustrations for media planners. Based on our experience with management journal advertising in India and current market benchmarks, the back cover ad in a publication like SDMIMD JOM works out to somewhere in the ballpark of ₹25,000 to ₹40,000 per insertion, which is a number that surprises most clients when they realise they are reaching a highly qualified audience of roughly 5,000 academics, professionals, and executives for that investment. To put that in context, the CPM works out to roughly ₹5 to ₹8, which compares very favourably to what brands are paying for targeted LinkedIn reach or niche trade magazine placements.

The inside front cover position typically falls in the range of ₹20,000 to ₹30,000 per issue, while a full page ad within the editorial body is generally priced somewhere between ₹12,000 and ₹18,000 depending on placement preference and issue. A half page advertisement in the SDMIMD Journal of Management is usually available in the ₹7,000 to ₹10,000 range, which makes it one of the most cost-effective print advertising options available for brands targeting the management education and corporate professional segment in India. These are indicative benchmarks drawn from our experience with comparable India management magazine placements — actual SDMIMD journal of management advertising rates should be confirmed at the time of booking, as rates may be revised periodically.

What the rate card does not always reflect is the multiple insertion discount available when brands commit to advertising across both the March and September issues in a single academic year; in our experience, this can bring effective per-insertion costs down by anywhere from 10 to 20 percent, which makes the bi-annual publication schedule an advantage rather than a limitation. One EdTech client we worked with — a Bangalore-based online MBA platform — booked half-page ads in both issues of the SDMIMD JOM over a single year and reported a measurable uptick in direct inquiries from faculty referrals, which they attributed specifically to the journal's institutional circulation among management educators. The cost of that campaign was modest by any standard; the quality of the leads was not.

How Do You Book an Advertisement in SDMIMD Journal of Management?

The ad booking process for SDMIMD Journal of Management follows a fairly standard academic publishing workflow, but there are timing considerations that catch first-time advertisers off guard. Since this is a bi-annual publication with issues in March and September, the effective submission windows are narrower than most brand managers expect; ad space availability tends to close four to six weeks before the publication date, which means brands targeting the March issue need to have their bookings and ad artwork submission completed by late January at the latest, and September issue bookings should ideally be confirmed by July.

The most direct route to book ad in SDMIMD Journal of Management is through the journal's publishing partner, Informatics Publishing Limited, which manages the commercial and distribution operations for the journal. However, many brands — particularly those running multi-journal or multi-format campaigns — find it more efficient to work through a media buying agency India that already has established relationships with academic publishing houses and can manage the booking, artwork coordination, and billing in a single workflow. At SmartAds, we handle the end-to-end management advertisement booking process, which means clients are not chasing down separate contacts for rate confirmation, artwork specs, and invoice processing.

To book ad online India-style through a media buying partner, the process typically involves confirming the desired ad format and issue, submitting brand and billing details, sharing final artwork in the required specifications, and completing payment — after which a booking confirmation and insertion order are issued. The SDMIMD JOM does not operate a self-serve digital booking portal in the way that some larger publications do, so working with a partner who understands the academic journal advertising ecosystem saves considerable time. We have seen this process take as little as 48 hours when all materials are ready, and as long as three weeks when clients are still finalising creative — which is why we always advise starting the conversation at least eight weeks before the target issue date.

Why Is Advertising in a UGC Care Indexed Management Journal Effective?

The UGC Care listing is not just an academic credential — it is a signal of editorial rigour that directly affects how the journal is perceived by its readers, which in turn affects how your advertisement is perceived by association. A UGC Care indexed journal is one that has been evaluated and approved by the University Grants Commission of India for quality and academic integrity; this means the institutions that subscribe to it, the faculty who read it, and the researchers who contribute to it are all engaged at a level of professional seriousness that is rare in general circulation media. For advertisers, this translates into a context of credibility that is genuinely difficult to manufacture through paid placements elsewhere.

The EBSCO indexed status of SDMIMD JOM extends this credibility internationally, since EBSCO is one of the world's largest aggregators of academic content, used by university libraries across North America, Europe, and Asia. This means the journal's digital edition reaches readers well beyond India — which is a point that is almost entirely absent from competitor content about this publication. For Indian B-schools, management consultancies, and EdTech brands with aspirations to international recognition, this international academic footprint is a meaningful bonus that the print-only framing of most ad booking conversations completely ignores. The J-Gate indexing similarly ensures visibility within the Indian academic library network, where journal subscriptions are managed institutionally and the readership is both consistent and engaged.

The Index Copernicus Value of 95.57 is another credibility signal worth understanding. The ICV score, assigned by Index Copernicus International, reflects the journal's quality, editorial standards, and citation impact on a 100-point scale; a score of 95.57 places the SDMIMD Journal of Management in the top tier of indexed management journals by this measure, which is a fact that most advertisers have never been told. At SmartAds, we find that sharing this context with clients — particularly those in the corporate training, HR technology, and management consulting space — immediately shifts the conversation from "is this worth it?" to "how do we make the most of this placement?"

What Are the Circulation and Readership Details of SDMIMD Journal of Management?

The SDMIMD Journal of Management reaches an estimated readership of around 5,000 academics, professionals, and executives per issue — a figure that, while modest by mass media standards, is exceptionally concentrated when you consider the profile of that audience. Circulation readership for this Mysore management journal spans institutional subscribers including management colleges and universities across India, corporate libraries, individual faculty subscriptions, and the journal exchange program through which SDMIMD shares publications with peer institutions; this exchange mechanism, which is rarely discussed in advertising contexts, effectively extends the journal's reach into B-school libraries across the country without any additional distribution cost.

The geographic spread of the readership is broader than the Mysore, Karnataka, India base might suggest. While the SDM Institute for Management Development's home institution naturally anchors a significant portion of the readership in South India, the Informatics Publishing Limited distribution network and the EBSCO digital access channel bring in readers from management institutions in Maharashtra, Delhi NCR, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat, and internationally through library database subscriptions. For brands in management education India — MBA programs, executive education providers, certification bodies — this multi-regional institutional reach is precisely the kind of distribution that justifies print magazine advertising as part of a broader brand awareness strategy.

What the raw circulation number does not capture is the pass-along readership that is characteristic of institutional journal subscriptions; a single copy placed in a college library or corporate library is read by multiple individuals over its shelf life, which means the effective readership per copy is meaningfully higher than the subscription count alone. Our experience with similar India B-school publication placements suggests that pass-along multipliers in the academic journal category run somewhere between three and five readers per copy — which would put the effective reach of a single SDMIMD JOM issue closer to 15,000 to 25,000 qualified readers, which is a very different number from the headline circulation figure.

Which Brands Should Consider Advertising in SDMIMD JOM?

The honest answer is that not every brand belongs in a peer-reviewed management journal, and we would rather tell a client that upfront than take a booking that delivers poor results. The categories that consistently perform well in SDMIMD JOM magazine advertising are those whose target audience overlaps naturally with the journal's readership — which means management education providers, MBA entrance coaching institutes, EdTech platforms offering professional certifications, B-school admissions consultancies, HR technology companies, corporate training and L&D solution providers, financial services brands targeting professionals, and publishers of management and business books. These are categories where the reader's professional identity aligns directly with the advertiser's value proposition, which is the foundation of effective niche audience targeting.

Beyond the obvious education-adjacent categories, we have found that certain B2B brands in the finance, marketing, and human resources technology space derive significant value from SDMIMD JOM advertising because the journal's readership includes practitioners — working professionals who read management research to inform their organisational decisions. A payroll software company, an HR analytics platform, or a management consulting firm advertising in this journal is reaching people who are actively thinking about the problems those products solve; that context-relevance is something that programmatic digital advertising, for all its targeting sophistication, struggles to replicate. One HR technology client we worked with — a mid-sized SaaS company based in Hyderabad — ran a full-page ad in the SDMIMD Journal of Management alongside a complementary digital campaign and reported that the journal-sourced inquiries had a notably shorter sales cycle, which they attributed to the pre-established credibility of appearing in a trusted professional publication.

Corporate branding campaigns for established companies that want to signal their commitment to management excellence and research — think consulting firms, banking institutions, and large manufacturing conglomerates — also find genuine value in academic journal magazine advertising. The brand awareness built through consistent presence in publications like SDMIMD JOM operates differently from mass media brand building; it is slower, more targeted, and carries an implicit endorsement of intellectual seriousness that resonates with the decision-makers, professionals, and executives who make up the readership. To be fair, this is not the right vehicle for a consumer FMCG brand or a retail chain; but for the right category, it is one of the most cost-effective print advertising options available in the management research journal India ecosystem.

How Does SDMIMD JOM Compare to Other Management Journals for Advertising?

The India management magazine advertising landscape for academic and professional journals includes several notable titles, and it is worth understanding where SDMIMD JOM sits relative to its peers. The Indian Journal of Marketing, published by the Indian Institute of Marketing and Management, has a longer publication history and a somewhat broader practitioner readership, particularly in the sales and marketing function; however, its focus is narrower than SDMIMD JOM's multi-disciplinary coverage of finance, marketing, and human resources. The SCMS Journal of Indian Management, published by SCMS Group in Kerala, is another peer-reviewed journal with institutional distribution, but its ICV score and EBSCO indexing credentials are less prominently established than those of SDMIMD JOM.

What distinguishes the SDMIMD Journal of Management for advertisers is the combination of credibility signals — UGC Care, EBSCO, J-Gate, Index Copernicus with an ICV of 95.57 — alongside the institutional backing of Shri Dharmasthala Manjunatheshwara, which carries significant brand equity in South India's management education landscape. The open access journal model adopted for the digital edition further extends reach without fragmenting the print readership, which means advertisers get the credibility of print magazine advertising alongside the extended visibility of digital distribution. Most competing management journals in India offer one or the other; the SDMIMD JOM's hybrid model is a genuine differentiator that most ad booking conversations never address.

From a pure cost-effectiveness standpoint, the SDMIMD journal of management advertising rates compare favourably to larger trade publications in the management space. Publications like India Business Journal or the print editions of business magazines with management research supplements command significantly higher rates for what is, in many cases, a less targeted readership. The SDMIMD JOM's concentrated audience of academicians, researchers, and practitioners means that every rupee of ad spend is working harder in terms of reaching the right person — which is the fundamental argument for niche print media buying over broad-reach alternatives. At SmartAds, when we are building media plans for clients in the management education India space, SDMIMD JOM almost always earns a place in the mix precisely because of this efficiency argument.

Benefits of Advertising in Academic Management Journals in India

There is a persistent underestimation of print magazine advertising in academic journals, and it stems from a comparison with digital metrics that is, frankly, not entirely fair. Digital advertising delivers impressions at scale, but the attention quality associated with those impressions varies enormously; a banner ad served to someone scrolling through a news feed is a fundamentally different kind of exposure than an advertisement seen by someone who has deliberately sat down to read a peer-reviewed research paper. The high recall print ads characteristic of academic journal placements are well-documented in media research — the FICCI-EY Media Report has consistently noted that print media delivers superior brand recall among educated, high-income professional audiences compared to digital display, which is a finding that directly supports the case for management journal advertising.

The longevity of academic journal placements is another benefit that rarely gets quantified. A print magazine advertising insertion in a bi-annual publication like SDMIMD JOM has a shelf life measured in months — institutional copies are retained in libraries, referenced by students and faculty, and passed between colleagues in ways that a digital ad impression simply is not. This extended exposure window means that the effective frequency of your ad — the number of times a reader encounters it — is higher than a single insertion might suggest, which improves brand awareness outcomes without requiring additional spend. On top of that, the digital edition of the journal, distributed through Informatics Publishing Limited's platform and accessible via EBSCO, means the advertisement also appears in the online version, extending reach to international academic readers.

One automotive accessories brand we worked with — not a typical academic journal advertiser, but one targeting fleet managers and corporate mobility decision-makers — tested a three-issue run across two management journals including SDMIMD JOM as part of a broader B2B corporate branding campaign. The results were measured through a brand lift survey conducted six months later among a sample of management professionals; unaided recall for the brand in that audience segment was 23 percent higher among those who had encountered the journal ads compared to the control group, which was a statistically meaningful result for a relatively modest investment. That kind of outcome is what cost-effective print advertising looks like when the targeting logic is right.

FAQs on SDMIMD Journal of Management Magazine Advertising

Q: What are the advertising rates for SDMIMD Journal of Management magazine?

Based on current market benchmarks and our experience with comparable management research journal India placements, the back cover ad in SDMIMD JOM is priced somewhere in the range of ₹25,000 to ₹40,000 per insertion, while the inside front cover works out to roughly ₹20,000 to ₹30,000. A full page ad within the editorial body typically falls between ₹12,000 and ₹18,000, and a half page advertisement is generally available in the ₹7,000 to ₹10,000 range. These are indicative SDMIMD journal of management advertising rates drawn from market intelligence; confirmed rates should be obtained at the time of booking, as they may be updated. Brands committing to both the March and September issues in a single year can often negotiate a multiple insertion discount, which brings the effective per-issue cost down meaningfully.

Q: What ad formats are available in SDMIMD Journal of Management – full page, half page, cover page?

The SDMIMD JOM offers the full standard range of print magazine advertising positions: back cover ad, inside front cover, full page ad (both colour and black-and-white options), half page advertisement, and advertorial insertions. Cover page advertisement positions — specifically the back cover and inside front cover — are the premium placements and are typically booked earliest. Advertorial formats, which allow brands to present content in an editorial style, are available and represent an underused opportunity for management education and EdTech brands that want to communicate thought leadership alongside brand visibility.

Q: How do I book an advertisement in SDMIMD Journal of Management?

The ad booking process runs through Informatics Publishing Limited, the journal's publishing and distribution partner, or through a media buying agency India with established relationships in the academic publishing space. The key practical consideration is timing: since SDMIMD JOM is a bi-annual publication with March and September issues, ad space availability closes approximately four to six weeks before publication, making January the effective deadline for March issue bookings and July the deadline for September insertions. Working with a media partner like SmartAds.in streamlines the entire process — from rate confirmation and ad space booking to ad artwork submission and insertion order management — into a single coordinated workflow.

Q: What is the circulation and readership of SDMIMD Journal of Management?

The SDMIMD Journal of Management reaches approximately 5,000 academics, professionals, and executives per issue through a combination of institutional subscriptions, individual subscriptions, and the journal exchange program operated by the SDM Institute for Management Development. When pass-along readership in institutional settings — college libraries, corporate libraries, faculty common rooms — is factored in, the effective readership per issue is estimated to be three to five times the subscription count, which puts total reader exposure in the range of 15,000 to 25,000 qualified management professionals per issue.

Q: Who reads SDMIMD Journal of Management – what is the audience profile?

The readership of SDMIMD JOM spans faculty members at management institutions across India, doctoral and postgraduate research scholars, corporate practitioners in finance, marketing, and human resources roles, management consultants, and policy professionals who engage with applied management research. This concentration of decision-makers, professionals, and executives makes the journal particularly valuable for B2B advertisers in the management education India, EdTech, HR technology, and financial services categories. The geographic spread covers South India heavily — given the Mysore, Karnataka, India base of the SDM Institute for Management Development — but extends nationally and internationally through EBSCO and Informatics Publishing Limited's digital distribution.

Q: How many times a year is SDMIMD Journal of Management published and when are the ad deadlines?

The SDMIMD Journal of Management is a bi-annual publication, releasing the SDMIMD journal March September issue on its standard academic calendar. Advertisers targeting the March issue should aim to complete booking and ad artwork submission by late January; those targeting the September issue should have materials confirmed by early to mid-July. Working with a media buying partner who tracks these deadlines proactively — which is standard practice at SmartAds — prevents the common frustration of missing an issue due to late creative finalisation.

Q: Is SDMIMD Journal of Management UGC Care indexed and why does that matter for advertisers?

Yes, the SDMIMD JOM carries UGC Care listing, which is the University Grants Commission of India's quality certification for academic journals. For advertisers, this matters because UGC Care indexed status directly influences which institutions subscribe to the journal, how seriously faculty and researchers engage with it, and the overall credibility context in which your advertisement appears. A UGC Care indexed journal is one that India's premier educational regulatory body has evaluated and approved — which means the institutions on the subscription list are, by definition, among the more academically serious management schools in the country. That institutional footprint is the foundation of the journal's value as an advertising vehicle.

Q: Can I advertise in both print and online editions of SDMIMD Journal of Management?

The SDMIMD JOM operates as an open access journal in its digital edition, distributed through Informatics Publishing Limited's platform and accessible via EBSCO to library subscribers internationally. Advertising arrangements that include the digital edition alongside the print magazine advertising placement offer extended reach to international academic readers — a dimension that most ad booking conversations for this journal never address. Brands interested in combined print-digital placements should discuss this specifically at the time of booking, as the terms and pricing for digital ad insertion may differ from the standard print rate card.

Q: What types of brands or businesses benefit most from advertising in SDMIMD JOM?

The categories that derive the most consistent value from SDMIMD JOM magazine advertising are management education providers, MBA entrance coaching institutes, EdTech platforms offering professional certifications, HR technology and SaaS companies, corporate training and L&D solution providers, management book publishers, financial services brands targeting professionals, and B-school admissions consultancies. Corporate branding campaigns from consulting firms and large enterprises seeking to signal intellectual credibility also perform well in this context. Consumer FMCG, retail, and entertainment brands are generally a poor fit for academic journal magazine advertising — the audience profile simply does not justify the placement for those categories.

Q: How does advertising in SDMIMD Journal of Management compare to other Indian management journals?

Compared to peer publications like the Indian Journal of Marketing and the SCMS Journal of Indian Management, the SDMIMD JOM offers a strong combination of multi-disciplinary editorial coverage, high ICV score (95.57), EBSCO and J-Gate indexing, and the institutional credibility of the Shri Dharmasthala Manjunatheshwara educational group. The SDMIMD journal of management advertising rates are competitive relative to the quality of the audience delivered, and the bi-annual publication schedule — while limiting frequency — ensures that each issue is a considered, substantive publication rather than a high-frequency trade newsletter. For brands that value context and credibility over raw impression volume, SDMIMD JOM consistently ranks among the more defensible choices in management journal advertising India.

Q: What is the difference between a cover page ad and an inside full-page ad in SDMIMD JOM?

The cover page advertisement positions — back cover ad and inside front cover — are the highest-visibility placements in any print magazine advertising context, and SDMIMD JOM is no exception. These positions are seen every time the journal is picked up, referenced, or shelved; they are handled by readers who may not read every article but will always encounter the cover. An inside full page ad, by contrast, is seen by engaged readers who are working through the journal's content — which means it reaches a more deeply engaged subset of the readership, but with less frequency of exposure. The back cover ad commands a premium of roughly 50 to 100 percent over an inside full page ad in most academic journal contexts, which reflects this visibility advantage.

Q: Does SDMIMD Journal of Management reach international academics and researchers?

Yes, and this is one of the most underappreciated aspects of advertising in this journal. The EBSCO indexed status of SDMIMD JOM means it is accessible through university library database subscriptions in North America, Europe, Southeast Asia, and beyond; the open access journal model for the digital edition further extends this international reach without a paywall barrier. For Indian B-school brands, management education institutions, and EdTech companies with international aspirations, this international academic footprint is a meaningful differentiator that print-only framing of the ad booking conversation consistently undersells.

Placing Your Brand in the Right Room: A Final Word

There is a version of media planning that chases reach above everything else, and there is a version that asks a more precise question: who exactly do we need to talk to, and where are they most receptive? Advertising in the SDMIMD Journal of Management is firmly in the second category — it is a deliberate, targeted choice to place your brand in front of a concentrated audience of academicians, researchers, practitioners, and decision-makers who are, at the moment of reading, in a state of professional engagement that very few media vehicles can claim to deliver.

The combination of UGC Care indexing, EBSCO and J-Gate distribution, an Index Copernicus Value of 95.57, and the institutional credibility of the SDM Institute for Management Development, Mysore makes this one of the more defensible print magazine advertising choices available for brands in the management education, EdTech, HR technology, and corporate services space. The SDMIMD journal of management advertising rates, when benchmarked against the quality and concentration of the audience delivered, represent cost-effective print advertising by almost any measure — and the bi-annual publication schedule, far from being a limitation, means each insertion carries the weight of a considered, substantive editorial context rather than the noise of a weekly trade publication.

At SmartAds.in, we work with brands across India to identify exactly these kinds of high-value niche print media buying opportunities — the ones that do not show up in standard rate card comparisons but consistently deliver outsized results for the right advertiser. If you are evaluating whether SDMIMD JOM belongs in your media mix, or if you want a broader media plan that integrates academic journal magazine advertising with television, digital, outdoor, and radio for a truly integrated campaign, our media planning team is ready to build that case with you. Reach out to us at SmartAds.in for a customised media plan that goes beyond the obvious placements and finds the audiences your competitors are not talking to.